Yes, Trombones

music man

John August is a smart and successful Hollywood screenwriter. On his blog,, he dispenses invaluable insights and practical knowledge about the craft, business, and art of screenwriting and life in the entertainment business. I read him regularly. I also listen to his podcast.

But his curious post, “No Trombones,” shocked me. It is so wrong in every single way I thought it might be an April Fool’s joke — but December is much too early or late for that. For some reason, August believes that children should not be taught to play such one-note instruments as trombone, rather they should take up the more elegant piano, or perhaps guitar.

As I posted in a comment on the site, perhaps Mr. August’s young daughter came home from school with a trombone and that set him over the edge. I feel his pain. I play the drums, but can’t imagine living in the same house with a kid banging away on a set. But I bless my parents every day for their unselfishness — and endurance.

Please read the entire farrago here. I don’t want to quote the entire piece, though practically every sentence demands response for its utter wrong-headedness.

August begins with this falsehood:

“With the best of intentions, we’ve taught kids to be helpless cogs in a symphonic machine. Worse, we’ve created a system that pretty much guarantees most adults won’t be able to make music by themselves.

We need to stop teaching kids to play the trombone. And the oboe. And the French horn. Particularly the French horn.

Kids should learn piano and/or guitar.”

OK. Cogs in a symphonic machine? Sorry, the system that guarantees that most adults aren’t wonderful musicians is the same system that guarantees that most adults aren’t wonderful plumbers or architects or even screenwriters. That lots of kids spend time not fully learning to play an instrument is no worse a crime than the fact that most little girls in ballet class will never dance at the Met or most boys tossing a football will never win a Super Bowl. So let’s stop buying them tutus and helmets?

August continues: “So we’re clear: I have nothing against the other instruments. They just don’t belong in the hands of children, and they shouldn’t be anyone’s first instrument.”

I think if Mr. August was being clearer, he’d admit that he doesn’t like the sounds made by band instruments in the hands of children. And who does? But a good parent won’t stifle a child’s interests and, as above, most kids won’t stick with it anyway.

Consider how we adults feign delight over a child’s incoherent crayon scribbles, awarding them a place of honor on the refrigerator door. By August’s logic, we should keep all drawing instruments away from young fingers until they are somehow able to produce gallery-worthy work.

Of course the obvious problem with this reasoning is best summed up in Malcolm Gladwell’s book Outliers, where he quotes research that indicates that an artist must spent 10,000 hours practicing to become even good.

music man

So denying future Urbie Green’s a trombone and expecting them to put in the necessary hours of practice as an adult is simply ridiculous. Most of the readers of Mr. August’s site are themselves amateur hopefuls who would surely agree that finding time for any kind of practice is extremely difficult once you’ve moved out of your parents’ house. Those unpleasant hours kids spend torturing some poor instrument, and adult ears, is the important foundation of any future in music — or any skill.

Let me attest to this personally. While I did take rudimentary drum lessons (a pun — I in fact studied drum rudiments. Ha!), I never truly learned to read music. And, unlike August, I never joined the school band. It wasn’t cool. They didn’t play rock.

And for playing rock at the teen center, no charts were required. It wasn’t until I’d been playing for nearly 30 years, put in my 10,000 hours playing professionally and then part-time, that I joined a big jazz band with the express purpose of learning to read music. As an adult, it took me a very long time to get it. I still shudder at the memory of a trombone player (yes, trombone!) cringing when I played right through a rest. But eventually I caught on and am now fairly proficient. I am comfortable sitting in with other bands without fear that I’ll embarrass everyone. But, because I’m still quite a ways from my 10,000 hours of reading practice, I’ll probably never be able to, say, walk into a Nashville or LA studio session and nail a chart on the first take. Or work the pit at the Kennedy Center.

And neither will anyone who doesn’t start studying as a kid. NPR’s Noah Adams decided to take up piano at age 51. He got a book out of it (Piano Lessons: Music, Love, and True Adventures). He has yet to release an album. Which is probably for the best.

August complains that instruments other than piano or guitar fail because “These instruments play a single note at a time, which works great for bands, but is incredibly limiting overall.”

Limiting how? Surely August understand’s that his own industry works the same way. Like an orchestra, each department in filmmaking — art, makeup, costume, crew, etc. — contributes to the success, or failure, of a movie. I guess learning lighting is limiting because you’ll never be able to go to a party and recite Shakespeare. You’re just a “one-note” kinda guy. But try shooting a movie with a cinematographer who didn’t spend his childhood messing around with lights.

August goes on to warn that “if you pick tuba, you’re never going to have a solo. Ever.” Where would film music be if little Tommy Johnson hadn’t picked the tuba? He’s the fellow who made the Jaws soundtrack the Jaws soundtrack. (Everybody sing: “Duh-duh. Duh-duh. Duh-duh…“) Johnson also played on more than 2,000 other soundtracks. Poor guy. Shoulda played piano.

Indeed, August seems fixated on the “problem” of instruments that “only” play one note at a time. If he knew any trombone, tuba, or sax players he might understand that they find joy and beauty in finding that one note to follow the previous, and then the next. Kinda like finding that right word to follow the next in your screenplays, eh, John?

“As a clarinet, you’ll form the backbone of most school bands,” writes August, “but no one will actually be sure what a clarinet sounds like.” Seriously? Is there anyone who doesn’t know what a clarinet sounds like? I suspect August’s problem is, as with tuba, the player supposedly won’t get to stand out. No solos. And here perhaps we get at what bugs August about trombones and one-note instruments and instruments that don’t sound pretty right away. The nature of August’s job is that he usually works alone and gets a single credit — his solo, if you will. He’s the star in the John August show. So from his perspective shouldn’t everyone want to shine in the spotlight, every time, all the time? That’s certainly the current zeitgeist, the look-at-me, I’m-so-special culture we’re enduring. But any solo is only good in the context of the work it’s part of.

Again August’s complaint reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of bands, orchestras, and music. I rarely play a drum solo, but the times that are the most fun and satisfying are when the entire band locks together. Nobody stands out because everyone is blending in. All those one-note instruments. Even the piano player.

Another ill-informed comment about high school band: “If you’re good but not great, you may be asked to ‘take one for the team’ and switch to an unpopular instrument like tenor sax,” August writes. Before the electric guitar, the saxophone was the lead instrument in rock and roll. It remains fundamental to jazz and is popular generally. Perhaps he meant soprano sax. Everyone hates Kenny G.

“The French horn is difficult, expensive and sounds terrible at a student’s level of proficiency. Ditto oboe. We might as well slaughter geese on stage.” Again, August’s discomfort with children’s lack of proficiency is irrelevant. Let parents decide if they can afford to buy an oboe and endure the learning curve.

August explains that he first learned piano as a child, then switched to clarinet, where “compared to other fifth graders, I was amazing at clarinet.” We’re so proud of you, John. But he goes on to contend, “[t]he problem is, success at clarinet doesn’t translate to music as a whole. I never learned chord progression, because clarinet plays one note at a time. I forgot how to read bass clef, because clarinet is written in treble. I only knew how to make fairly pretty sounds within a narrow range of musical genres: classical, Woody Allen jazz, and When the Saints Come Marching In.”

Haha. But stupefying wrong. Success with one instrument does indeed translate to an understanding of music as a whole. Because it’s all of a piece. That August forgot how to read bass clef is only a comment on his lack of commitment and interest in being a musician. He’s not a musician. He gave it up to became a writer. Fine for him. But if a kid has a true interest and desire to play music, they’ll pay more attention than did young Johnny. And that’s good for the future of music.

And that little joke about the “narrow range of musical genres” only demonstrates the narrow range of August’s musical knowledge. There is much more to clarinet music than “Woody Allen jazz.” Indeed, much more to jazz than Allen’s fixation with Sidney Bechet.

In half-hearted praise of learning guitar, August writes that “you’re unlikely to strum Beethoven.” For a start, these five people prove August utterly wrong. Again.

After bashing the idea of school bands, August then contradicts himself with the sentence, “If we’re going to save high school marching bands, we’ll eventually have to teach the band instruments. And we can, quickly. Because here’s the secret about marching bands: not only is the music fairly easy, so are the instruments. In fact, it’s common to switch players between instruments to make up for gaps in a marching band. We break out the mellophones and the marching bells and somehow it all gets done.”

Sorry, playing glockenspiel is not the same as trumpet, sax or, yes, trombone. Those players who switch instruments so easily are the ones who generally go on to become serious musicians, the outliers if you will. The same ones who were studying those horrible sounding one-note instruments as children. And nobody “quickly” learns an instrument. Especially if they’re denied the opportunity to start in grade school.

August then insults a “publishing industry that creates sheet music so that twenty-five kids can lurch through a patriotic medley.” Note to John: the sheet music industry has been as hard hit by piracy as your precious movie biz. Here’s an NPR story on the subject. The Hal Leonard company is not a cabal forcing John Philip Sousa on the public.

August sums up his jeremiad with this howler: “[I]f we got rid of grade school and junior high bands and replaced them [with] pianos and guitars, I think the actual learning outcome — the ability to make music — would be much better.” Make what kind of music? All George Winston and William Ackerman? A crazy assertion based on nothing at all.

August is currently producing a Broadway version of his movie Big Fish and notes that, as is the common practice, the creators are working out the show around a piano. He does acknowledge that the show will “ultimately have a full orchestra” to perform the song. Surely he must understand that the top-notch musicians who will play his score began as clueless kids making caterwauling rackets on one-note instruments in their parent’s basement.

That horrible sound is the price we all pay so that the show can go on.

UPDATE August has turned off comments on his entire site. Coincidence after they ran about 90% against him on the trombone piece? I’m not buying his explanation. Also, he says I’ve learned nothing. That’s true in many cases, not here. But welcome to all the John August fans. Hey, let’s start a band!

33 Responses to “Yes, Trombones”

  1. Spoon Says:

    Good stuff. I hope August responds.

  2. Administrator Says:

    Thanks, me too. Judging by the drubbing he’s taking on his own site, he may want to hide out for a few days…

  3. Carl Johnson Says:

    Very well written - Perhaps Mr. August [not to be confused with Mr October] had his tongue in his cheek as he was making his points.
    Mr August fails to comment on the most important type of sequential note musicians, the singer. His arguments would be applicable [or, better, non-applicable] to singers as well as instrumentalists. I would hate to see would-be musicians discouraged from becoming vocalists, or choosing any other method of developing their artistic talent.

    Carl J, BBT lead trombone

  4. More than 76 Trombones | A ton of useful information about screenwriting from screenwriter John August Says:

    [...] Nuttycombe attempts a point-by-point refutation of my “utter wrong-headedness” on his blog. At 2,000 words, it’s a third longer than my original post — rarely a good sign — [...]

  5. Josh Peterson Says:

    This paragraph: “That lots of kids spend time not fully learning to play an instrument is no worse a crime than the fact that most little girls in ballet class will never dance at the Met or most boys tossing a football will never win a Super Bowl. So let’s stop buying them tutus and helmets?”

    You’re not really addressing what he’s saying here.

    The point is, if your kid plays the trombone and only trombone they’re going to have no musical independence. They’re dependent on a symphonic/jazz band context to play music at all. Furthermore, what is the chance they’re going to be able to participate in a casual, spontaneous musical get-together. Some of my best musical experiences where when I was at someone’s house who had a guitar and piano with a few other people. Say someone else comes over with a guitar. Now you have a party. You can switch off and play songs for hours! You can teach each other things! And you don’t have to be a gifted musician to be able to participate in that. If your kid is a mediocre trombone player, they are out of luck.

    Also, the chances of your kid composing music if they learn the flute, clarinet, etc. are much much lower than if they had put x amount of effort into the guitar or piano. Composing music is a much much more meaningful experience than just playing along in the band, and if they’re going to go through the effort I want them to have a shot at that.

  6. Sandy MacDonald Says:

    Against Trombones:

    No child should be able to use an extensible spit-valve.

  7. Chris Farrell Says:

    It doesn’t help your rebuttal that your tuba guy is someone most people never heard of–which you prove when you have to add identifying information before you can use him in your argument. How convincing would it be to illustrate the importance of guitar to popular music if you had to explain that Keith Richards is “that guy who played guitar for the Rolling Stones”?

  8. Daniel Hatch Says:

    Terrible rebuttal. Just admit that trombone sounds horrible when a kid plays it. Also, piano and guitar are just plain easy to play; pretty common too, if you can’t afford to buy one. Marching band people on the internet are just butthurt.

    Why do you make sure the drummer’s seat is level? So that the drool comes out of both sides of his mouth.

  9. Administrator Says:

    @Josh: Thanks for responding. My understanding of one of Mr. August’s central points, and yours here, is that only piano and guitar offer the proper foundation for truly understanding and enjoying music. That’s where we disagree. You say someone who “only” plays trombone or other one-note instrument will have “no musical independence”? Well, music is an utterly interdependent undertaking. That is the point. Each instrument is meant to play with other instruments. Humans are social; our music is, too. While piano and guitar can certainly be played solo, they truly come alive when surrounded by reeds, brass, strings, and percussion. And plenty of modern bands are featuring horn and reed instruments. The cello has become hugely popular in indie music these days.

    Tell me how many solo piano or guitar albums you own? I’ll give you George Winston.

    And yes, somebody showing up at a party with a guitar can lead to a fun night. (If the person can play.) Having just returned from a party that featured a (yes!) trombone player, as well as clarinet and trumpet, I guarantee if one of those guys showed up at your guitar party it would not be a buzz-kill. Again, guitar or piano plus any other instrument also equals fun.

    As to your point that a kid who doesn’t learn piano or guitar will lose out on chances for composing music, well I just Googled “composer flautist.” Got 6,540,000 hits, including one for eight-time Emmy winner Kat Epple. Googling “composer trombonist” yields 16,400,000 hits. Yes, I understand Google results; there aren’t 16 million composing trombonists. My point is there are still plenty of non-pianists out there enjoying full musical lives.

    Again, learning any instrument fully means learning music. Just because some instruments play one note at a time is in no way a limitation, of the instrument or the player.

    @Chris: Again, thanks for taking the time to read my post and respond. As above, you seem to be equating learning to play a musical instrument with becoming famous. That’s a fairly modern side-effect brought on by radio, mass production, and mass marketing of songs and artists. Television and movies increased the effect. The Internet has quadrupled it times a million. For centuries, the point of learning to play was to entertain oneself and (hopefully) family at night around the fire when not being eaten by dragons. The few “professional” musicians were indigent troubadours going from town to town. They most certainly did not travel the land in luxurious busses or private jets.

    And that was fine. Still is. Music is something you should do for yourself. If you’re in it for fame and fortune, well, you’re suffering from what I call “Lead Guitarist Syndrome,” and I think you and Mr. August may have caught a touch. If your purpose in teaching a child an instrument is that they can become show-offs at parties, I think you’re doing it wrong.

    Also, I don’t weep for Tommy Johnson. He had a great career and contributed a significant moment to pop culture. I added a link because I think more people should know about him.

    @Sandy: OK, you got me there.

  10. Chris Farrell Says:

    Dave, when you wrote “Googling ‘composer trombonist’ yields 16,400,000 hits.” do you mean you googled those terms with the words in quotation marks? Because when I do that (which seems the correct way to test you thesis on the rough number of trombonists who are composers, I get 19,000 hits. (And 16,300 for flautists.) Isn’t that what you need to do to get even guesstimate of the number of hits for folks who are both composers and trombonists?

  11. Administrator Says:


    Indeed, I was lazy-googling. But your numbers also make my point: There are lotsa folks other than pianists or guitarists who have careers as composers.

    As Mr. August has closed comments on his site, I’m glad to take up the battle here. Bottom line, as horrible as all grade-school bands are, I believe there’s more good to come from exposing kids to all kinds of instruments and letting the chips, and sour notes, fall where they may.

    Thanks again for taking the time.


  12. Mike Says:

    As both a long-time reader of August and one-time (horrible) juvenile clarinetist, I feel like I am qualified to comment…

    I think August is sincere in what he wrote. I disagree with much of what he writes but I agree with what I think is one of his motivations: maximizing what musical instruction children get. There is certainly something to be said for starting children on an “easy” instrument where they’ll feel successful quickly. I assume that’s why my kids learned the recorder first and not something else. I’m happy to trust that the music teachers of the world know more about how to teach my kids music than I do.

    I learned the piano first but switched to clarinet because I no longer found the piano interesting. I can’t accept that I would have been better off being forced to stick with the piano or not play an instrument at all. From what I’ve seen, schools already have more than enough of an emphasis on producing good little workers and could use more of an emphasis on producing well-rounded people.

  13. Jim Says:

    I think what John August is saying is that if you’d taken piano/guitar as a kid, you’d have a much better chance at being a studio drummer in Nashville or working the pit at the Kennedy center.

  14. Nutco Says:


    I agree on John’s sincerity. And totally agree that music and arts education in grade school is vital, regardless of how many future Beethovens it produces. But my reading of Mr. August suggests that he would rip those recorders out of your kid’s hands and sit them down on a piano bench. Recorders being one-note instruments. And your experience echoes much of what I’m trying to say: You played piano until it became boring to you, then switched to something more exciting. I argue that an important component of keeping children involved with music is allowing them to play whatever instrument they find appealing, without worrying that they may not become so-called fully-rounded musicians. The fact that you apparently dropped playing an instrument altogether is both typical and no shame. Most kids do. There’s a lot of other stuff to get involved with these days. Like arguing on the Internet! That’s a skill that really needs to be taught!

    Thanks for responding.

    @Jim: I agree that’s much of his point, and much of my disagreement, especially as concerns drums. Drum charts and piano charts are wildly different animals. For a percussionist, time spent learning key signatures is better spent learning how to really kick an accent. I think John wants a cadre of musical generalists. I prefer the value of specialization, because ultimately all music needs many instruments.



  15. A Little Pitchy, Dog « My Weirding Says:

    [...] quite a bit of discussion, which prompted him to rebut. I followed a link in that rebuttal to Dave Nuttycombe’s comments  at which I left the following: As both a long-time reader of August and one-time (horrible) [...]

  16. Elmore Says:

    “But my reading of Mr. August suggests that he would rip those recorders out of your kid’s hands and sit them down on a piano bench. Recorders being one-note instruments.”

    As someone who claims to read August’s blog and listen to his podcast, do you REALLY think that he’s the type of guy who would storm into a music classroom and “rip recorders out of your kid’s [sic] hands?”

    You can agree or disagree with him, but that line of discourse is not really constructive or honest, and does little to support your argument in a meaningful way. With what you’re saying there, you either believe August would steal your kid’s recorder, or you are using inflammatory language to discredit and impugn a person you disagree with. Either one of those is a bummer.

  17. Nutco Says:


    Thanks for writing. No, I do not believe that John August is a horrible monster who abuses kids. Quite the contrary, it seems he’s a thoughtful man and good parent, from what may be gleaned from the blog.

    I was speaking metaphorically. Perhaps overly dramatic as well, but my point was (is) that there are many ways and types of instruments to interest children. I’m surprised you found the term “rip” shocking and were bummed. So much worse floats around on this Internet all the time. I wish you luck in avoiding it.

    Also, thanks for the catch on my misplaced apostrophe. Sometimes I miss not working with a copyeditor.

    Take care,


  18. Elmore Says:

    “I’m surprised you found the term “rip” shocking and were bummed. So much worse floats around on this Internet all the time. I wish you luck in avoiding it.”

    I didn’t find the term shocking. I found it irresponsible, dishonest and lame. And yes, I understand the Internet is a cesspool of hyperbole, disinformation and outright lies. Which, based on your response to my comment, seems to be something you’ve made peace with and even embraced. That’s certainly one way to go. Another would be to hold yourself to a higher standard and rise above that kind of stuff. I guess, ultimately, I just wonder why you feel the need to paint me as a pollyanna because I called you out for framing your argument in a cheap way.

    Speaking of…

    “Limiting how? Surely August understand’s that his own industry works the same way. Like an orchestra, each department in filmmaking — art, makeup, costume, crew, etc. — contributes to the success, or failure, of a movie. I guess learning lighting is limiting because you’ll never be able to go to a party and recite Shakespeare. You’re just a “one-note” kinda guy. But try shooting a movie with a cinematographer who didn’t spend his childhood messing around with lights.”

    There is quite a few things wrong with this clunky analogy. The first of which is that so many of the jobs on on a film set (and I have held a lot of these different jobs over the years) are things people fall into, rather than work for all their lives. There aren’t a lot of kids out there sitting around playing with C-stands and flags, hoping to one day grow up and be a grip.

    Likewise, I would be amazed if any cinematographer “spent his childhood messing around with lights.” Most DP’s learn their trade in film school. They are also overwhelmingly Eastern European, which is not necessarily relevant, but is something I’ve always thought was kinda funny. Sure, these Eastern Bloc light-jockeys may have taken a few photography classes in high school, but they didn’t have to put in the countless hours to perfect their technical mastery of an instrument. To make this sweaty analogy does a huge disservice to world-class musicians, which is the opposite of what you’re trying to do with this piece.

    Lastly, this is Hollywood we’re talking about here — NOBODY recites Shakespeare at parties.

    Well, maybe Kenneth Branagh.

  19. Nutco Says:

    Ha! Just saw Branagh in My Week With Marilyn. Quite wonderful.

    And yes, very interesting about the plethora of Eastern European cinematographers. Is there something about the light over there? I was in the South of France once and found the light there reminded me of Central/Southern California. Not sure what that means.

    But your point about people falling into jobs is good — and something I hint at as well in my disagreement with August. I think his notion that limiting musical instrument choices for children will in fact give them a greater understanding and enjoyment of music throughout their lives is noble, but naive. As you say, most people “fall in” to their lives. Despite our best intentions in exposing kids to all manner of good things, in the end many factors decide what path people take. So, where I feel that August was being overly dogmatic, I’m being utterly pragmatic in my disagreement. Trombones, pianos, it doesn’t matter. Some kids will become musicians, most won’t. Why hinder the ones who will?

    As for “irresponsible, dishonest, and lame,” I’ve been writing professionally long enough to have a “voice,” and people who appreciate my work. That voice can be sarcastic, ironic, humorous, metaphorical but always, I insist, fair. Perhaps if I’d made a video response, the facetiousness of my tone would have been clearer. But I still don’t believe that my words are in any way out of line in an honest debate.

    But because we’re both basing our positions on the reaction of a man neither of us has met, until Mr. August weighs in on whether he’s been disparaged, I suppose we’ll both have to cede victory.

    Thanks again for writing.


  20. Scott Says:

    I started out playing trombone. Within a short time I was also dabbling in guitar and piano. The training I received in trombone formed the framework for understanding all other instruments I’ve learned. Certainly there were elements of theory that could only be learned on multi-note instruments. Yes, learning other instruments in general, and multi-note instruments in particular,has helped me go on to compose music and entertain myself and others. Learing trombone didn’t hurt.

    I continued playing trombone through high school and college while studying as a music major whose major instrument was guitar. I play music regularly these days semi-professionally (i.e., for fun, extra cash and free drinks). Much of what makes me valuable as a musician is knowledge gleaned from playing trombone in an ensemble. Playing in bands, if it’s done well, is largely about knowing how to perform in an ensemble; to be a cog in a machine. That’s the case for people who play multi-note instruments as much as for those who play single-note instruments.

    Most of the people I know who have done well as musicians started out out playing in band or orchestra in public school. Most of the people I know who have taken up guitar, piano, drums, and other rock instruments who have not had experience playing in band or orchestra in public school have had a relatively harder go of it. This is to say I believe there is a very high correlation between learning single-note instruments (or effectively single-note instruments such as viola) in public school and being successful as musicians. That includes guys playing guitar in Nashville. Would those people have been as successful had they learned piano or guitar in public school? Very likely (though they would probably be lacking in ensemble experience). But I certainly don’t think that playing the single note instruments, compard to multi-note instruments, has held anybody back who wanted to learn about music.

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